Comments on The 7-10: Palmer on Politics: On the Political Relevancy of Religion

Anonymous,

Well said. But I think the Unit...

2008-12-02T09:42:00.000-05:00

Anonymous,

Well said. But I think the United States has two real complexes that are really distracting us from moving on to address more pressing issues. These two complexes, in my opinion, are religion and sex. We claim that we are a religiously tolerant country, but then we criticize Obama for not going to church regularly. And do you think we'd ever have a Muslim or Buddhist president? Not in our lifetimes!

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Thomas,

I think Obama is an incrementalist. He has said that he supports civil unions, but not gay marriage. The nation is not quite ready for that yet, but I do think that if gay marriage legislation came across his desk, he'd ultimately sign it even if he vetoed it the first time. Gay marriage is just one of those hot button issues that sounds "gross" or "wrong" at first glance, but then after a bit of exposure and reflection, your views moderate a bit. I do think that gays will be able to marry by the end of Obama's presidency however. It's coming.

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Brett,

I didn't debate Frea's second post. Sometimes people can be so far apart on an issue that it's best to just pick your battles. I enjoy reading his blog from time to time, but I strongly disagreed with his arguments.

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DB,

Wow, what a response! I think the key thing you wrote is how un-Christian a lot of social conservatives are even though they often think that they and only they have a monopoly on virtue and the ability to establish a moral code for the public to follow. I'm telling you, if the evangelicals' agenda became the law of the land, you would see MASSIVE protests that make the backlash from Proposition 8 seem like a backyard barbecue. The government's promotion of morality flies in the face of conservatives' desires for less government influence in their lives. And who's to say that their values should be the ones we all follow? Who anointed them as savants of society? I think most people simply don't care and just want to either get along with each other or be left alone. But the social conservative agenda is very imposing which creates friction and most definitely does NOT leave people alone.

Sarah Palin in particular would be the worst thing that could happen to the GOP because I don't think she realizes how strong the opposition is to the segment of the party she represents.

I am still on vacation but this is too good to pas...

2008-12-01T13:50:00.000-05:00

I am still on vacation but this is too good to pass up. Social conservatives have this extremist view of what America was (which is a vision of the past) rather than what America can be. They will quote the founders as if they could even comprehend how our nation is today. Our founders understood that this nation would change, that is exactly why they allowed amendments in our Constitution. They weren't exactly the moral leaders of the country then, yet we somehow spin it as if they were. The moral leaders then were exactly who they should be today...the basic family unit and the community leaders. Not the President. Don't get me wrong, our founders did amazing things, but we remember the country they established, not the moral codes they lived by.

By the way, conservatives will pick and choose quotes from our founders the same way they do of the Bible, read the Treaty of Tripoli (John Adams) where he claims America is not a Christian nation. Or hell, simply read the Constitution where "God" or "Christianity" are left out (I assume) on purpose. Though I do find it ironic they claim the founders used God as a tool of fear...impressive how nothing changes. Social conservatives have since made this an art!

It is social conservative viewpoints such as this "Christians only" mentality that neglects to understand the greatest part about America and who we are. America isn't and shouldn't be a specific culture with a specific religion or color, nor with a specific attitude. America is great because of all the cultures that have made up America, not just the anglo-saxon/Christian one. Embracing our differences with others is more American than segregating our differences.

Conservatives disagree. They are more comfortable if their neighbors looked like them and thought like them. They talk about assimilation rather than embrace other cultures. They get upset if a community heavily populated with one culture makes use of their language rather than English. They get angry when they see someone different do something they cannot understand, rather than try and understand. For instance, they have contempt for the illegal immigrants themselves trying to make a better life for their families which they are unable to do in their home country than finding contempt with the government who fails to do anything about it. Yes, they claim BOTH, but that feeds into my point. I cannot find fault in someone making a better life for their family, even if it means they cross a poorly enforced border into a country where the government allows them to have health care and education despite their status. You can't blame them, but social conservatives will blame them more than the government that allows it. (They claim they don't though, but their actions are more telling).

If anything, social conservatives are less like Christ than they think and act. They have made Christ in their own image, just as they are trying to make this country. There is a reason many in this country assume bigotry lies only with social conservatives (yes, not true, but it's a stereotype). You look at history and the things social conservatives have fought against misquoting scripture and nothing they say now contradicts that. Over and over these same social conservatives of each generation find an area to attack simply for being different. They want to conserve what they think America is rather than what America actually is.

This isn't a country of white Christians. That may make up the majority, but that is not what America is. Christianity doesn't solely embrace one color, or one type of people. If social conservatives are preserving anything, it is the rampant misquoting of the Bible that has for generations warped their views. To me, a non-Christian, the most important aspect of the Bible, hands down, is the teachings of Christ. Everything else is fluff. What Christ said and did (and would do) is how a Christian should conduct their lives. Yet I find, especially with arguments against Proposition H8, that these social conservatives embrace every other part of the Bible than Christ's teachings.

Again, social conservatives have made Christ in their image rather than aspiring to live their lives in his image.

Back to vacation for me! Great topic.

Oh, I think people have become experts at reading ...

2008-12-01T13:23:00.000-05:00

Oh, I think people have become experts at reading whatever they want into the founders' meaning of things. This, of course, assumes the founders all thought the same way. Which I find highly unlikely.

That second Rick Frea blog post was a sad joke, An...

2008-12-01T02:23:00.000-05:00

That second Rick Frea blog post was a sad joke, Anthony. He claims that the Founders thought that fear of God would be a useful tool to hold the nation together - except that if that were the case, then why did they establish an explicitly secular government with a perogrative to limit the kind of institutions that would maintain that fear?

Anthony, do you think Barack Obama is really again...

2008-11-30T14:43:00.000-05:00

Anthony, do you think Barack Obama is really against gay marriage? Or is it still kind of the politically expedient position to hold?

And why isn't Obama the focus at all for any of the anger that was caused by Proposition 8 passing?

I remember once in a TV interview the Rev. Jerry F...

2008-11-29T18:23:00.000-05:00

I remember once in a TV interview the Rev. Jerry Falwell said he'd rather a good president who was an atheist than a bad president who was Christian.

I completely agree with you. I always found it odd...

2008-11-29T18:21:00.000-05:00

I completely agree with you. I always found it odd that many conservatives always wanted the president to be a better person than they were. If they want to hold people to a higher standard, they should start at home and in their communities. Don't award adulterers, liars, and thieves with public office just because they go to church every Sunday, quote scripture, or belong to the same political party.